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Worms Clan Wars

For Boggy B and his mates. If they existed, of course.

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Re: Worms Clan Wars

Postby Thurbo » Thu Jun 27, 2013 8:32 pm

New additions include the Teleport Gun, a Portal-esque weapon allowing you to quickly move around the map.


That sounds even more interesting. I wonder whether it works exactly like this.

Worm Mad wrote:Also, no DLC is probably for the best. People only ever complain about that.


No, they complain about the rope, the god damn Ninja Rope for god damn's sake!
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Re: Worms Clan Wars

Postby SupSuper » Thu Jun 27, 2013 9:51 pm

Thurbo wrote:No, they complain

FTFY
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Re: Worms Clan Wars

Postby Muzer » Fri Jun 28, 2013 12:05 am

WA players dislike the rope in new Worms games not because it's different, but because it's different in a worse way. If it was possible to become just as skilful as with WA's rope, many (not all, I'm sure - some people just don't like change!) of the criticisms would go away. Similar things *apparently* apply more generally to the physics for some people - I can't really comment on this aspect as I've only played two new games, one of which was a poor port (WOW DS) and one of which used WA's engine (WOW2 DS) ;)


Anyway, as for the new game - I'm not going to get my hopes up. Chances are I won't buy it (I don' t buy many games in general - check my Steam account if you don't believe me, only one of those games I actually paid money for), but if the physics looks really good and the new features work well, I might consider it. I'll see how it plays out.
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Re: Worms Clan Wars

Postby _Kilburn » Fri Jun 28, 2013 7:29 am

Thurbo wrote:That sounds even more interesting. I wonder whether it works exactly like this.


That looks incredibly overpowered. :P I certainly hope it won't be that exploitable.
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Re: Worms Clan Wars

Postby Thurbo » Fri Jun 28, 2013 4:14 pm

The problem is that 80% of the game modes played in Worms Armageddon are almost entirely based on the Ninja Rope. Obviously at least half of W:A's playerbase will not be satisfied as long as they can't adopt their skills. I don't really know why they are caring about this type of players at all - all of the recent games from Worms 2: Armageddon onwards have been on top of the most purchased lists on various platforms for years and none of the sales came from the W:A "hardcore" players I'm pretty darn sure. That's what made their move to develop a PC exclusive title rather surprising to me, though it might not be that costly with the game based on an existing engine.
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Re: Worms Clan Wars

Postby SupSuper » Fri Jun 28, 2013 4:48 pm

Well the sort of features they're touting do not really make sense on other platforms. Dedicated online lobbies, moddability tools, etc, are all pretty much a PC thing.
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Re: Worms Clan Wars

Postby Alien King » Fri Jun 28, 2013 6:42 pm

_Kilburn wrote:That looks incredibly overpowered. :P I certainly hope it won't be that exploitable.


That looks like.
"We know the Ninja rope was a powerful mobility tool and very useful, but we don't understand games anymore and have decided high-ceiling, low-floor tools are bad".

Out of all the weapons there were, the Ninja Rope in W:A had the highest performance ceiling. That's why it came to dominate.
The downside is that the rest of what could be a good strategy game, where the Ninja Rope* could be a powerful part, was largely ignored.

*It's important that being good at something allows you to try different strategies, and whilst this is partially fulfilled with the Grenade and Bazooka+Wind, they're very high-risk and hence very swingy.

Unfortunately, they never really got a good balance of the Ninja Rope since. The one in Reloaded was too slow and actively worked against you, lowering the ceiling.
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Re: Worms Clan Wars

Postby StepS » Fri Jun 28, 2013 11:30 pm

_Kilburn wrote:
Thurbo wrote:That sounds even more interesting. I wonder whether it works exactly like this.


That looks incredibly overpowered. :P I certainly hope it won't be that exploitable.

lol maybe, but we still have this :P
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Re: Worms Clan Wars

Postby KRD » Sat Jun 29, 2013 12:27 am

Thurbo wrote:
New additions include the Teleport Gun, a Portal-esque weapon allowing you to quickly move around the map.


That sounds even more interesting. I wonder whether it works exactly like this.


I'm thinking it'll probably be something like this, a bit like the translocator in Unreal Tournament. Would certainly keep it from being massively overpowered if you had to aim it like a weapon and got relocated to the new position instantly instead of getting infinite attempts.
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Re: Worms Clan Wars

Postby _Kilburn » Sat Jun 29, 2013 7:45 am

StepS wrote:
_Kilburn wrote:
Thurbo wrote:That sounds even more interesting. I wonder whether it works exactly like this.


That looks incredibly overpowered. :P I certainly hope it won't be that exploitable.

lol maybe, but we still have this :P


This is so much better. :P

Would be amazing if they actually went through community forums and picked weapon concepts from there. I remember Bill telling me that he showed them this video, and that they liked the Bowling Ball and the Hang Glider. But that was a while ago though. :(

Still, a bowling ball would probably work perfectly in the Revolution engine.
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Postby Thurbo » Sat Jun 29, 2013 3:01 pm

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Re: Worms Clan Wars

Postby D_Wormkiller » Sun Jun 30, 2013 5:34 pm

Last time I wrote in the Team17 forum was over one year ago, when I stated I won't have taken part in the Revolution beta because it seemed a disappointment (and I heard it was).
I said also that I won't have done any more beta tests unless team17 is going to get another better direction. When I heard of this game, I remained positively surprised by the potentials and the care team17 is going to give to the competitive players, things that the company didn't in her last 3 videogames of Worms Franchise.
So I decided to apply for this beta, hoping to get in for the third time. I think this will be the last time I'm trusting team17 and I seriously hope my trusts aren't going to be destroyed like paper under the rain.
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Re: Worms Clan Wars

Postby Obn3g0n » Sun Jun 30, 2013 7:03 pm

I'll admit they are finally seeming to make some positive changes for the series. It seems they have actually listened to some of our criticisms (which surprises me as they have given no indication of doing so until now -- deleting every single forum post that isn't full of praise and banning the poster).

BUT I'm not getting my hopes up. I have next to no trust or faith in Team17 anymore, and I've seen how well they can hype even the shittiest game.

Pros:
-PC exclusive
-Wormnet
-Old-style rope (we'll see). No mid-air aiming, please, and also fix the reshoot angle. The worms should bounce off the walls, when connected to a rope, to make it possible to gain speed. No auto-detach.
-Speeding the game up.

However,

-No custom imported maps. This is a MUST and it should have been in every Worms game since W:A. The "largest ever" maps are a nonsense marketing term when compared to WA's 30000x30000 pixel maps.
-Only 5 terrain types. At least include WRev's terrain. Ideally add ability for custom terrain samples, for random map generation.
-Same old clunky ass physics engine and imprecise 2.5d models. The map's proportions shouldn't change when you zoom in/out.
-Large inefficient menus -- this isn't a console game. For example in-game chat screens / weapons panels that take up the whole screen. For scheme editing, put all the options together on one or two screens, not 6 weapons per page.
-It remains to be seen how much game customization there will be. With those menus, probably not much. And I'm not talking about hats and stuff, although that feature will be cool.
-Very tight release schedule. No time for beta testing/proper bug fixing. This game has potential but Team17 is gonna screw it up by rushing the game out the door full of bugs.

I'll add more points as I think of them, but I'm definitely only buying this if the reviews (by people who aren't complete idiots - sorry Thurbo) are very good.

The fact that Team17 continue to heavily censor their forums (just Steam now since they deleted their old forums altogether) and have not acknowledged what a bad job they've been doing indicates that their shit-and-run mentality has not changed and that this will just be a minor refresh for the quick money grab. I would like it if they would prove me wrong for once.
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Re: Worms Clan Wars

Postby Thurbo » Mon Jul 01, 2013 11:12 am

Ah, no new Worms game without complaints from W:A players. I was starting to miss that.


Obn3g0n wrote:...which surprises me as they have given no indication of doing so until now -- deleting every single forum post that isn't full of praise and banning the poster.

I think that only happens when you are being extremely aggressive and put in as many swearwords and curses as possible. Which, quite frankly, you did a lot.


Obn3g0n wrote:-No custom imported maps. This is a MUST and it should have been in every Worms game since W:A. The "largest ever" maps are a nonsense marketing term when compared to WA's 30000x30000 pixel maps.

There will be custom maps with workshop support, there is zero point for 30000x30000 pixel maps. Except for rope races. That should be a stand-alone game anyway with real-time gameplay to make it less sublimely boring.


Obn3g0n wrote:-Same old clunky ass physics engine and imprecise 2.5d models. The map's proportions shouldn't change when you zoom in/out.

I heard 3D games are imprecise because they are 3D, too. Have you been at Rezzed or how do you know the physics are "clunky ass physics"? Also, good thing the map's proportions remain similar when zooming in/out in Revolution, expecting the same from Clan Wars personally.


Obn3g0n wrote:-Large inefficient menus -- this isn't a console game. For example in-game chat screens / weapons panels that take up the whole screen. For scheme editing, put all the options together on one or two screens, not 6 weapons per page.
-It remains to be seen how much game customization there will be. With those menus, probably not much. And I'm not talking about hats and stuff, although that feature will be cool.

Can you post a link to the screenshots? I haven't seen any of the weapons panel yet. Except if you've been at Rezzed of course, no need.


Obn3g0n wrote:-Very tight release schedule. No time for beta testing/proper bug fixing. This game has potential but Team17 is gonna screw it up by rushing the game out the door full of bugs.

Fortuneteller :o


Obn3g0n wrote:The fact that Team17 continue to heavily censor their forums (just Steam now since they deleted their old forums altogether) and have not acknowledged what a bad job they've been doing indicates that their shit-and-run mentality has not changed and that this will just be a minor refresh for the quick money grab. I would like it if they would prove me wrong for once.

PC exclusive indicates something, what reason would there be not to port it on consoles otherwise? "Bad job" is a relative term considering the whole success of their recent games. With casual players throwing their money at them the decision of developing this sort of game is surprising enough.


Obn3g0n wrote:(by people who aren't complete idiots - sorry Thurbo)

Last time discussions ended with the entire W:A community agreeing that Worms is in fact a much fairer, more strategic and competitive game than Starcraft. I'm making a subtle point here, try to spot it.
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Re: Worms Clan Wars

Postby Star and Moon » Mon Jul 01, 2013 1:40 pm

Obn3g0n Thurbo has some very valid points. Don't start immediately hating on the game just because of some assumptions based of the last game. Give Team17 a chance and start bashing on it once you've actually got something to back what your saying.

I'm not saying it's guaranteed Team17 will do the best they can on this title but it's also not guaranteed they're going to fail either. Just wait and see.
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Re: Worms Clan Wars

Postby Worm Mad » Mon Jul 01, 2013 5:48 pm

Obn3gon wrote:(by people who aren't complete idiots - sorry Thurbo)


I don't know why you were banned on the T17 Forum (assuming you were), Obn3gon, but insulting other users isn't on. Just a friendly warning.

On that note, let's try not to let this thread get bogged down in negativity and sniping. Generalisations about Team17 being a bunch of talentless hacks who don't listen to their fans or the Worms Armageddon community being filled with roping-obsessed conservatives who hate change aren't helpful.

Let's keep things classy, folks! :D
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Re: Worms Clan Wars

Postby Obn3g0n » Tue Jul 02, 2013 12:30 am

Jeez, I wasn't even really bashing the game. More like bashing Team17, which is completely justifiable. Anyone who doesn't at least share my skepticism has the wool over their eyes. It's the people who always blindly compliment Team17, and the casual players who eat everything up, who are responsible for the constant decline in the series, for not holding the creators up to a higher standard. I don't want Team17 to think they can sneak another one by us. Every time they introduce an upcoming game, with their trademark hype, and then it turns out to be total crap, it insults our intelligence. Provided you have some intelligence to insult. I want others to share my outrage, and to join together, with a collective voice louder than the aforementioned casual players and blind complimenters, so that they push back the release date and actually put some effort into this game.


Thurbo wrote:I think that only happens when you are being extremely aggressive and put in as many swearwords and curses as possible. Which, quite frankly, you did a lot.

No, not at all. Many, many innocuous posts by many people just trying to help got deleted, both on the Team17 forum and on Steam. Why do you think that just about every thread on the Steam forum right now is positive about the game? It's not because the game is good.

Thurbo wrote:There will be custom maps with workshop support, there is zero point for 30000x30000 pixel maps. Except for rope races. That should be a stand-alone game anyway with real-time gameplay to make it less sublimely boring.

Maps of the standard size, you mean? I've never used Steam Workshop so I don't know how limited that will be.. no comment. I'm hoping you mean that those small maps can be imported into the workshop from other graphics editors. I know your feelings on rope races and I don't share them. There are certainly many more uses for nonstandard map sizes than just rope races, come on man. Nobody should be encouraging Team17 to release MORE poorly executed Worms games.

Thurbo wrote:Also, good thing the map's proportions remain similar when zooming in/out in Revolution

In revolution, am I mistaken to say that, for example, a small hole in the landscape can be invisible when the camera is zoomed out? Or that certain small ledges you might want to jump onto may disappear?

Thurbo wrote:Can you post a link to the screenshots? I haven't seen any of the weapons panel yet. Except if you've been at Rezzed of course, no need.

I saw some menus in a screenshot and they look basically identical to Revolution and very inefficient. Granted I didn't see the weapons panel.

Thurbo wrote:Obn3g0n wrote:
-Very tight release schedule. No time for beta testing/proper bug fixing. This game has potential but Team17 is gonna screw it up by rushing the game out the door full of bugs.

Fortuneteller

This has been the #1 problem with like, their last 6 games, ever since Worms 3d. Rushing the game out the door, inadequate time for beta testing/implementing feedback/bug fixing. This is the most valid statement that could possibly be made. The fact that the game seems almost finished now seems ridiculous to me. They should have started development of this game with a public apology seeking suggestions from their core fanbase with an open invitation for continued feedback, not developing the entire game in complete secret for release 2 months from now, while censoring and ignoring useful feedback. Does 2 months sound like enough time for beta testing to you?

Thurbo wrote:Can you post a link to the screenshots? I haven't seen any of the weapons panel yet. Except if you've been at Rezzed of course, no need.

I saw some menus in a screenshot and they look basically identical to Revolution and very inefficient. Granted I didn't see the weapons panel.

Thurbo wrote:Last time discussions ended with the entire W:A community agreeing that Worms is in fact a much fairer, more strategic and competitive game than Starcraft. I'm making a subtle point here, try to spot it.

Actually I remember this discussion and how you failed to persuade anyone of your point of view on the matter, since you have willfully ignored all competitive aspects of WA and seem to think (from your statements) Worms should just be a silly casual game with no precision consisting of "lol exploding cows jaja xDDDD". I'm pretty sure this is your actual opinion on the matter, so don't take this as an insult. I'm just trying to make a point.

Imagine with me for a minute that Thurbo is a developer for Worms Clan Wars. I'm not saying, or implying, that he is -- this is a thought experiment. Even though I've accused Thurbo of being a Team17 employee/forum troll/misinformation artist in the past, that's not what I'm getting at. I'm just saying this because I think his point of view mirrors the Team17 developers' opinion pretty closely. Or what I imagine their opinions to be since they are AWOL and just have their unqualified "developer" Bethany available for public 'interaction' (dxdiag'ing and censorship). My suggestions, in light of the critical failure that was Revolution and Reloaded, and in light of the fact that I'm a long-time WA player, should be valued.

The game's actual developers never played WA with any depth, so they can't be expected to know what works and what doesn't, or what's important in a Worms game. It should be given that they NEED our input as WA players, because they just don't know. My posts shouldn't make anyone indignant or defensive. My posts are strongly worded by necessity because identical suggestions have been ignored so many times. The only reason any worms developer should be defensive is if it's true that they don't give a damn, and are just trying to half-ass and get their paycheck. And if that is the case, why would any of you defend them and not join me in telling them to go F themselves?

If Team17 is making a PC exclusive worms game, supposedly aimed more at core worms players, then that should be in recognition of the bad direction that they've been taking. I imagine that Team17 sees certain requests and shoots them down with rationalizations similar to the ones Thurbo has provided, such as "Revolution wasn't THAT imprecise, and you don't need precision anyway". Why are they assuming that they know better than me and other WA players? Especially when they've been doing it so wrong. It's just pride getting in their way.

My point is that if Worms Clan Wars was an actual attempt to do it right, we would have known that many months ago. This is just their most inexpensive/half-assed way to try to get WA fans to shut up. They want to be able to tell WA fans "we tried taking your suggestions and making a more customizable game with stronger netplay features, etc, and it still failed. The public wants Facebook games! We told you so, now shut up."

We're all adults on this forum. This is the internet. Stop trying to protect everyone's delicate feelings, forget who your friends are on this forum, and let's discuss this game properly.
Last edited by Obn3g0n on Tue Jul 02, 2013 1:40 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Worms Clan Wars

Postby Bloopy » Tue Jul 02, 2013 1:17 am

Obn3g0n wrote:Jeez, I wasn't even really bashing the game. More like bashing Team17, which is completely justifiable. Anyone who doesn't at least share my skepticism has the wool over their eyes. It's the people who blindly always compliment Team17, and the casual players who eat everything up, who are responsible for the constant decline in the series, for not holding the creators up to a higher standard. I don't want Team17 to think they can sneak another one by us. Every time they introduce an upcoming game, with their trademark hype, and then it turns out to be total crap, it insults our intelligence. I want others to share my outrage, and to join together, with a collective voice louder than the aforementioned casual players and blind complimenters.

The problem is that the Worms games have been casual games lately. We already had a decade of hardcore Worming, and came out of it realising that there's other games and things to experience and care about in life. :P Though maybe this Clan Wars thing will establish more of a hardcore gaming crowd who actually care to see bugs fixed. If clan rankings are the core feature of the game, T17 will have incentive to clean up any rank cheating.
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Re: Worms Clan Wars

Postby Worm Mad » Tue Jul 02, 2013 1:24 am

Obn3gon wrote:We're all adults on this forum. This is the internet. Stop trying to protect everyone's delicate feelings, forget who your friends are on this forum, and let's discuss this game properly.


All I said was that calling someone a 'complete idiot' is out of line, which it is. If you've got a problem with that, I can show you the door.
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Re: Worms Clan Wars

Postby Squirminator2k » Tue Jul 02, 2013 1:37 am

I'd appreciate it if people didn't go around calling each other idiots on this forum just because they hold an opinion different from yours. DO please keep that in mind.
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